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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;You Weary Giants of Flesh and Steel&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://grinding.be/2009/07/04/you-weary-giants-of-flesh-and-steel/</link>
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		<title>By: Votom</title>
		<link>http://grinding.be/2009/07/04/you-weary-giants-of-flesh-and-steel/comment-page-1/#comment-30183</link>
		<dc:creator>Votom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 15:38:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grinding.be/?p=1854#comment-30183</guid>
		<description>Who would be our candidate?

Anonymous himself?
Milhouse?
One of the many Nigras from a Habbo raid? (He&#039;s a veteran thats always a plus in US politics XD)
Longcat?
Or just some random crazy hobo we found on the street? (thus making him more sane and in touch with the real world than most politicians)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who would be our candidate?</p>
<p>Anonymous himself?<br />
Milhouse?<br />
One of the many Nigras from a Habbo raid? (He&#8217;s a veteran thats always a plus in US politics XD)<br />
Longcat?<br />
Or just some random crazy hobo we found on the street? (thus making him more sane and in touch with the real world than most politicians)</p>
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		<title>By: Seej 500</title>
		<link>http://grinding.be/2009/07/04/you-weary-giants-of-flesh-and-steel/comment-page-1/#comment-30177</link>
		<dc:creator>Seej 500</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:43:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grinding.be/?p=1854#comment-30177</guid>
		<description>Some fantastic comments here, but just to weigh in for a second, I really don&#039;t think Government or Physical Industry (regardless of the country) particularly understands the internet, even now.  For example, there&#039;s regularly stories about how the various intellectual property companies are suing people (e.g. this woman who was found guilty and fined $1.92 million for just 24 songs http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article6534542.ece ), trying to get them banned from the internet, and generally making themselves look like utterly ridiculous bullies, while having next to no effect on the number of downloads.  Then there&#039;s things like Iran trying to switch off the internet after the election, but I was still receiving tweets from a guy in Tehran throughout the recent problems there.

It&#039;s true that not everyone has access yet, but for those of us who do, the founding principles of the network make it next to impossible to really regulate.  Let&#039;s not forget that DARPANET (as it was originally) was designed to withstand nuclear attack.  An irrelevant politician wagging a finger from Whitehall or The Capitol, or an increasingly out-of-touch record label or movie studio denting their profits more with expensive lawyers than downloading really does (instead of just bloody well buying Napster back at the start like they should have done!) is hardly likely to slow things down when even physically taking a good section of the net offline won&#039;t stop it working.  Even if they manage to stop 100,000 people doing things they don&#039;t like, it&#039;s still just a drop in the ocean and high-profile pursuit of the law-breakers just publicizes how easy it is to an ever-increasing audience.

They&#039;ll still try though; it&#039;s all they know how to do.  I&#039;d suggest they&#039;re forced to spend a couple of weeks posting as an anon on /b/ to get a feel for how things really work, but I suspect that would just send their knee-jerk reactions through the roof.  Though I would at least *consider* voting for a politician who&#039;s campaign was just crudely cobbled-together memes.  Who&#039;s for starting The Win Party (vote for us for Epic Lulz)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some fantastic comments here, but just to weigh in for a second, I really don&#8217;t think Government or Physical Industry (regardless of the country) particularly understands the internet, even now.  For example, there&#8217;s regularly stories about how the various intellectual property companies are suing people (e.g. this woman who was found guilty and fined $1.92 million for just 24 songs <a href="http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article6534542.ece" rel="nofollow">http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article6534542.ece</a> ), trying to get them banned from the internet, and generally making themselves look like utterly ridiculous bullies, while having next to no effect on the number of downloads.  Then there&#8217;s things like Iran trying to switch off the internet after the election, but I was still receiving tweets from a guy in Tehran throughout the recent problems there.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s true that not everyone has access yet, but for those of us who do, the founding principles of the network make it next to impossible to really regulate.  Let&#8217;s not forget that DARPANET (as it was originally) was designed to withstand nuclear attack.  An irrelevant politician wagging a finger from Whitehall or The Capitol, or an increasingly out-of-touch record label or movie studio denting their profits more with expensive lawyers than downloading really does (instead of just bloody well buying Napster back at the start like they should have done!) is hardly likely to slow things down when even physically taking a good section of the net offline won&#8217;t stop it working.  Even if they manage to stop 100,000 people doing things they don&#8217;t like, it&#8217;s still just a drop in the ocean and high-profile pursuit of the law-breakers just publicizes how easy it is to an ever-increasing audience.</p>
<p>They&#8217;ll still try though; it&#8217;s all they know how to do.  I&#8217;d suggest they&#8217;re forced to spend a couple of weeks posting as an anon on /b/ to get a feel for how things really work, but I suspect that would just send their knee-jerk reactions through the roof.  Though I would at least *consider* voting for a politician who&#8217;s campaign was just crudely cobbled-together memes.  Who&#8217;s for starting The Win Party (vote for us for Epic Lulz)?</p>
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		<title>By: Votom</title>
		<link>http://grinding.be/2009/07/04/you-weary-giants-of-flesh-and-steel/comment-page-1/#comment-30172</link>
		<dc:creator>Votom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 09:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grinding.be/?p=1854#comment-30172</guid>
		<description>Thinking on it more some of it is actually quite true.

&quot;nor do you possess any methods of enforcement we have true reason to fear.&quot;

This one is actually prett on the ball. Even now censorship and such doesn&#039;t really work online. Take the Pirate Bay being bought out for instance, now that they&#039;re going to go corporate people are just going to switch to a new torrent tracker (if not an existing one then a brand new one). Every time a site or part of the net gets cracked down on people just go around it. Even with China&#039;s &quot;great firewall&quot; it is actually fairly easy to get around it using a proxy or VPN.

&quot;We have no elected government, nor are we likely to have one&quot;

*twitch*
We are Anonymous...you know the spiel.

&quot;We did not invite you. You do not know us, nor do you know our world. Cyberspace does not lie within your borders. Do not think that you can build it, as though it were a public construction project. You cannot.&quot;

The net itself is the hardware infrastructure the web relies on. The web can not be built like a public construction project but the net can be. Also recent trends in &quot;cyberwarfare&quot; have me a bit worried on this front. How long before countries get the silly idea to try and lay claim to parts of the web? How would you even go about such an idiotic thing? I mean the only ones who really control the net are the companies at the heart of it like ICANN (Who by the way have insofar done a terrific job despite what the EU and other countries say).

&quot;You have not engaged in our great and gathering conversation&quot;

*looks on 4Chan*
Yeaaaah...great and gathering discussion...

&quot;You do not know our culture, our ethics, or the unwritten codes that already provide our society more order than could be obtained by any of your impositions.&quot;

I get the feeling that in a lot of cases if they did know these things then the gov types would be even more anxious to try and regulate the web.

&quot;You claim there are problems among us that you need to solve&quot;

I still don&#039;t know what problems these are aside from the blatantly illegal stuff that&#039;s got no merit even in free speech.

&quot;We are creating a world that all may enter without privilege or prejudice accorded by race, economic power, military force, or station of birth.&quot;

WTF mate? (said in an australian accent for lulz)
You still need to be in a certain country to get net access let alone web access due to the various costs and infrastructure needed.

&quot;We are creating a world where anyone, anywhere may express his or her beliefs, no matter how singular, without fear of being coerced into silence or conformity.&quot;

Oh wow...if this was written today you&#039;d think this guy had never been online...EVER. 

&quot;Your legal concepts of property, expression, identity, movement, and context do not apply to us. They are all based on matter, and there is no matter here.&quot;

This is a nice little tidbit that makes me of Intellectual Property laws. It is amazing how an entire business sector has popped up around enforcing these.

Annnnd I can&#039;t be arsed delving much into the rest. But yeah some things in the declaration are spot on but others well it shows its age.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thinking on it more some of it is actually quite true.</p>
<p>&#8220;nor do you possess any methods of enforcement we have true reason to fear.&#8221;</p>
<p>This one is actually prett on the ball. Even now censorship and such doesn&#8217;t really work online. Take the Pirate Bay being bought out for instance, now that they&#8217;re going to go corporate people are just going to switch to a new torrent tracker (if not an existing one then a brand new one). Every time a site or part of the net gets cracked down on people just go around it. Even with China&#8217;s &#8220;great firewall&#8221; it is actually fairly easy to get around it using a proxy or VPN.</p>
<p>&#8220;We have no elected government, nor are we likely to have one&#8221;</p>
<p>*twitch*<br />
We are Anonymous&#8230;you know the spiel.</p>
<p>&#8220;We did not invite you. You do not know us, nor do you know our world. Cyberspace does not lie within your borders. Do not think that you can build it, as though it were a public construction project. You cannot.&#8221;</p>
<p>The net itself is the hardware infrastructure the web relies on. The web can not be built like a public construction project but the net can be. Also recent trends in &#8220;cyberwarfare&#8221; have me a bit worried on this front. How long before countries get the silly idea to try and lay claim to parts of the web? How would you even go about such an idiotic thing? I mean the only ones who really control the net are the companies at the heart of it like ICANN (Who by the way have insofar done a terrific job despite what the EU and other countries say).</p>
<p>&#8220;You have not engaged in our great and gathering conversation&#8221;</p>
<p>*looks on 4Chan*<br />
Yeaaaah&#8230;great and gathering discussion&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;You do not know our culture, our ethics, or the unwritten codes that already provide our society more order than could be obtained by any of your impositions.&#8221;</p>
<p>I get the feeling that in a lot of cases if they did know these things then the gov types would be even more anxious to try and regulate the web.</p>
<p>&#8220;You claim there are problems among us that you need to solve&#8221;</p>
<p>I still don&#8217;t know what problems these are aside from the blatantly illegal stuff that&#8217;s got no merit even in free speech.</p>
<p>&#8220;We are creating a world that all may enter without privilege or prejudice accorded by race, economic power, military force, or station of birth.&#8221;</p>
<p>WTF mate? (said in an australian accent for lulz)<br />
You still need to be in a certain country to get net access let alone web access due to the various costs and infrastructure needed.</p>
<p>&#8220;We are creating a world where anyone, anywhere may express his or her beliefs, no matter how singular, without fear of being coerced into silence or conformity.&#8221;</p>
<p>Oh wow&#8230;if this was written today you&#8217;d think this guy had never been online&#8230;EVER. </p>
<p>&#8220;Your legal concepts of property, expression, identity, movement, and context do not apply to us. They are all based on matter, and there is no matter here.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is a nice little tidbit that makes me of Intellectual Property laws. It is amazing how an entire business sector has popped up around enforcing these.</p>
<p>Annnnd I can&#8217;t be arsed delving much into the rest. But yeah some things in the declaration are spot on but others well it shows its age.</p>
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		<title>By: DavidForbes</title>
		<link>http://grinding.be/2009/07/04/you-weary-giants-of-flesh-and-steel/comment-page-1/#comment-30138</link>
		<dc:creator>DavidForbes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 15:59:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grinding.be/?p=1854#comment-30138</guid>
		<description>It reminds me of those futuristic manifestoes from the early 20th century, when the fires of industry were going to save us all, albeit through a different path. 

Those too, had their brilliant parts, but it&#039;s worth keeping in mind how they turned out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It reminds me of those futuristic manifestoes from the early 20th century, when the fires of industry were going to save us all, albeit through a different path. </p>
<p>Those too, had their brilliant parts, but it&#8217;s worth keeping in mind how they turned out.</p>
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		<title>By: Votom</title>
		<link>http://grinding.be/2009/07/04/you-weary-giants-of-flesh-and-steel/comment-page-1/#comment-30126</link>
		<dc:creator>Votom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 12:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grinding.be/?p=1854#comment-30126</guid>
		<description>Wow....that is old. I was but a wee sprog when I first read that and bloody hell thinking on it I can&#039;t help but feel a little cheated.

However on the other hand the internet has become a multi-tiered world in its own right. You have the heavily controlled and gated &quot;corporate sector&quot; from where you can purchase all manner of things ranging from data to material goods. Then you have the free area of the net where you can get your hands on almost anything so long as it is not physical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow&#8230;.that is old. I was but a wee sprog when I first read that and bloody hell thinking on it I can&#8217;t help but feel a little cheated.</p>
<p>However on the other hand the internet has become a multi-tiered world in its own right. You have the heavily controlled and gated &#8220;corporate sector&#8221; from where you can purchase all manner of things ranging from data to material goods. Then you have the free area of the net where you can get your hands on almost anything so long as it is not physical.</p>
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		<title>By: heresybob</title>
		<link>http://grinding.be/2009/07/04/you-weary-giants-of-flesh-and-steel/comment-page-1/#comment-30098</link>
		<dc:creator>heresybob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:55:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grinding.be/?p=1854#comment-30098</guid>
		<description>Wow.  It&#039;s been years since I read that.  Like the real Declaration of Independence, it&#039;s horribly dated.  But that&#039;s not why I&#039;m writing here:

Like the notion of Athenian Democracy and Magna Carta, the DoI transcended it&#039;s original use into a societal ideal - and it&#039;s the Bill of Rights which really drove the law to what it is.  

This document is more of a vacuous rebel yell (in all of it&#039;s Billy Idol MTV hollowness) against perceived tyranny rather than a document defining the rights of internet minds. 

On the other hand, the statements the document makes are correct - the human drive for freedom and the rights to be self-governed will use any and every tool for communication,  and are adapting to the internet extremely fast.

So, pragmatic realism is best, but documents to stir the blood, allowing us to strive for ideals are always important.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow.  It&#8217;s been years since I read that.  Like the real Declaration of Independence, it&#8217;s horribly dated.  But that&#8217;s not why I&#8217;m writing here:</p>
<p>Like the notion of Athenian Democracy and Magna Carta, the DoI transcended it&#8217;s original use into a societal ideal &#8211; and it&#8217;s the Bill of Rights which really drove the law to what it is.  </p>
<p>This document is more of a vacuous rebel yell (in all of it&#8217;s Billy Idol MTV hollowness) against perceived tyranny rather than a document defining the rights of internet minds. </p>
<p>On the other hand, the statements the document makes are correct &#8211; the human drive for freedom and the rights to be self-governed will use any and every tool for communication,  and are adapting to the internet extremely fast.</p>
<p>So, pragmatic realism is best, but documents to stir the blood, allowing us to strive for ideals are always important.</p>
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		<title>By: Nebet</title>
		<link>http://grinding.be/2009/07/04/you-weary-giants-of-flesh-and-steel/comment-page-1/#comment-30070</link>
		<dc:creator>Nebet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jul 2009 04:30:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://grinding.be/?p=1854#comment-30070</guid>
		<description>*We are creating a world that all may enter without privilege or prejudice accorded by race, economic power, military force, or station of birth.*

If only this were true. Unfortunately, access to the Internet is mediated through access to technology -- and while the barriers are lowering all the time, a lack of economic power still blocks many from participation in this community of Mind. Literacy is an even more fundamental block, since so many of our communications are still based in written language; and being physically abled, though not mentioned in the list above, is another privilege which many do not enjoy. 

It&#039;s getting better, but to say that the cyberspace has been accessible to all from its conception is wishful thinking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*We are creating a world that all may enter without privilege or prejudice accorded by race, economic power, military force, or station of birth.*</p>
<p>If only this were true. Unfortunately, access to the Internet is mediated through access to technology &#8212; and while the barriers are lowering all the time, a lack of economic power still blocks many from participation in this community of Mind. Literacy is an even more fundamental block, since so many of our communications are still based in written language; and being physically abled, though not mentioned in the list above, is another privilege which many do not enjoy. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s getting better, but to say that the cyberspace has been accessible to all from its conception is wishful thinking.</p>
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